Season 4 · Episode 9
Director of Smithereens and Desperately Seeking Susan · the Sex and the City pilot
Released 28 Aug 2024 · 1:16:41 as a podcast · AFTERPARTY launched 11 Nov 2026
167 references · 416 mentions
Susan Seidelman on making Smithereens, casting Madonna in Desperately Seeking Susan, Plato's Retreat and the Continental Baths, and directing the Sex and the City pilot.
3 mentees · 9 mentions · #3 of 47 mentors · Hall of Fame
3 mentions · in 1 AFTERPARTY · #28 of 34 guests
Tortoiseshell glasses, gold hoops, black top
Long golden-blonde hair, round dark tortoiseshell glasses, gold hoop earrings and a black V-neck top, in front of white built-in bookshelves in her New Jersey country house
Xeroxed self-posters
Wren in Smithereens works at a copy shop and posts copies of her face asking 'Who is this girl?' all over the East Village - like RuPaul did before he was famous
Susan cast the up-and-coming pop star as Susan in Desperately Seeking Susan rather than an actress; she brought Into the Groove to the Danceteria shoot and improvised the hand-dryer moment
Heard as “madonna”
Susan moved there in 1973 for film school; Smithereens and Desperately Seeking Susan caught how wonderful and crazy it was
Heard as “new york”
Susan's first feature about Wren, a girl from New Jersey who wants to be part of the East Village scene; made with $12,000 from her grandmother, it was the first American indie in competition at Cannes
FashionWren's DIY new-wave look
Heard as “smithereens”
Susan's film with Rosanna Arquette and Madonna, two worlds like Alice in Wonderland: pastel suburbia and a heightened downtown
FashionMadonna's Susan look
Heard as “desperately seeking susan / desperately speaking of susan”
Plays the pink romance novelist in She-Devil; Susan says she never directed Meryl's acting, only the scene around her
Heard as “meryl / streep”
The downtrodden housewife in She-Devil, cast against Meryl Streep; Susan calls her a self-made comic hero to housewives and says she could shoot herself in the foot
Heard as “roseanne”
Susan went to NYU's graduate film school in the mid 70s, with 30 straight white men; Fenton and Randy went there too
Heard as “nyu”
Smithereens was moved from the Directors' Fortnight into the official competition - the first low-budget American indie there; two British strangers at a café table paid for the blow-up print
Heard as “cannes / cannes film festival”
Screenwriter Susan found by phoning Columbia's screenwriting department; he helped with the dialogue on Smithereens and went on to a big career
Heard as “neiswander / ron”
Co-host and co-founder of World of Wonder; Fenton says their first show together was on Manhattan Cable public access
Heard as “barbado / randy”
Co-star of Desperately Seeking Susan as Roberta; Susan says there was some friction on set as she was still learning to work with professional actors, and at the 20th-anniversary screening she finally told her how brilliant she is
Heard as “arquette / rosanna / roseanne arquette”
Guest: director of Smithereens, Desperately Seeking Susan, Making Mr. Right, She-Devil, Cookie and the Sex and the City pilot; her memoir is Desperately Seeking Something
Heard as “susan / susan seidelman / susan sutherland”
Wren in Smithereens works at a copy shop and posts copies of her face asking 'Who is this girl?' all over the East Village - like RuPaul did before he was famous
FashionXeroxed self-posters
Heard as “photoshop / xerox / zeroxes”
Plays Eric in Smithereens; Susan says she was nervous he might not show up, but found him serious about the work and a real cinephile who had worked at the Cinemabilia bookstore
Heard as “richard / richard hell”
For a few months around 1980-81 it got groovy, with trapeze artists above the dance floor; Smithereens shot scenes there
Heard as “peppermint”
Left Susan $12,000 for her wedding or furniture; with the engagement off, it became the seed money for Smithereens
Heard as “grandmother / nana”
After Cannes, Hollywood called; Rosanna Arquette came from a Hollywood family
Heard as “hollywood”
Susan went: helicopters drowned out the vows; Andy Warhol, Grace Jones, Tom Cruise and Princess Leia were there
Heard as “a wedding like / madonna's wedding / that wedding”
Susan first saw her in Balm in Gilead and cast her in Desperately Seeking Susan and again in Making Mr. Right
Heard as “laurie / laurie metcalf / lloyd metcalf”
Susan directed the pilot: Carrie in a studio flat above a coffee shop, talking to the camera; the city as a character
FashionThe pilot's less-fashion-led look
Heard as “sex and the city”
Before he was famous he put up Xeroxes of himself all over the East Village asking 'Who is RuPaul?', like Wren's posters in Smithereens
Heard as “rupaul”
Played Wren in Smithereens, her first film; she took the Polaroid of herself in the film's selfie scene and went to Cannes with Susan
Heard as “susan berman”
Smithereens is an underground punk classic; Richard Hell the great punk rocker
Heard as “punk”
Cannes felt like falling down the rabbit hole; Desperately Seeking Susan is Alice in Wonderland with Madonna as the white rabbit
Heard as “alice”
In 1973, just arrived in New York, Susan pinned towels on the models of a fashion show there with Bette Midler and Barry Manilow playing
Heard as “continental baths”
Susan pinned the towels on the Continental Baths runway in 1973; at Plato's Retreat most people walked around in towels
FashionTowels
Heard as “towel”
Desperately Seeking Susan's club scene was shot here in Congo Bill's, with Into the Groove as temp music
Heard as “congo bill / dan sateria / dance interior”
Plays both the android and its misogynist creator in Making Mr. Right - Frankenstein and the creation; Susan had seen him direct Balm in Gilead
Heard as “malkovich”
Co-host; asks about the shadow-figure graffiti of the early 80s and about Manhattan Cable, where he and Randy made their first show together; the two went to NYU graduate film school
Heard as “fenton”
Smithereens' bombed-out early-80s world; Susan lived there at the time
Heard as “east village”
His babies and dogs, another way of tagging yourself; his shoes turn up in Making Mr. Right
Heard as “keith haring / key tearing”
The Cannes section for first-time filmmakers that first accepted Smithereens
Heard as “fortnite”
New wave kids doing the pogo in Smithereens' Peppermint Lounge scenes
FashionBleach-blonde waterfall hair
Heard as “bleach blonde / pogo / waterfall”
The swingers club in the old Continental Baths space; Susan went out of curiosity and found towels, a buffet of carrot and celery sticks and a mix of bridge-and-tunnel swingers, porn stars and downtown people
Heard as “plato”
On the list for Susan in Desperately Seeking Susan; later Samantha in Sex and the City
Heard as “cattrall / kim”
In the bus-station bathroom Madonna flipped the nozzle and dried her armpits - her own improvisation
FashionMadonna's Susan look
Heard as “air dryer / hair blower”
Susan watched its late-night public-access shows; Fenton and Randy's first show together was on it
Heard as “manhattan cable”
Late-night Manhattan Cable star Susan watched around 1977-78; the hosts know her
Heard as “robin bird”
The cable man in the silver Mylar singlet with a video camera; Susan bumped into him about 15 years ago
Heard as “ugly george”
Susan's comedy with Ann Magnuson and John Malkovich, a woman falling for an android, shot in old pastel South Florida
FashionPower suits and Keith Haring shoes
Heard as “making mr. right”
Locked down in the country, Susan started the notes that became her memoir
Heard as “pandemic”
Host; had just watched Smithereens for the first time and was blown away
Heard as “james / james h. james”
Smithereens is a new wave classic; the Peppermint Lounge scenes are full of new wave kids
Heard as “new wave”
Star of Making Mr. Right and a guest on the show this season
Heard as “magnuson / magnussen”
Susan's memoir of movies, mothers and material girls; it began as notes on her iPhone during the pandemic
Heard as “desperately seeking something”
Wrote SAMO on the sidewalks - a way of tagging yourself
Heard as “basquiat / samo”
Wren's boring small hometown; Susan now lives in the New Jersey countryside
Heard as “new jersey”
The one American woman directing films Susan could name when she was at film school in the mid 70s
Heard as “elaine may”
One of Susan's favourite films; both leads are manipulative and wonderful
Heard as “midnight cowboy / razzo rizzo”
Susan says she partly based Wren on Nancy Spungen, a girl from her hometown she knew of, who was not a survivor
Heard as “spongen / spungen”
Costa-Gavras's film with Jack Lemmon and Sissy Spacek, in competition at Cannes with Smithereens
Heard as “missing”
Played at the Continental Baths fashion show where Susan pinned the towels
Heard as “bette midler”
Susan's senior-prom date and the only person she knew when she moved to New York in 1973; he brought her to the Continental Baths
Heard as “billy”
Cinematographer of Desperately Seeking Susan; his coloured-gel lighting of the alleyways later turned up in every MTV video
Heard as “ed put / lachman”
Roberta's bland pastel suburbia against a gritty, hyper-real downtown where every costume is a little exaggerated
FashionPastel suburbia vs. exaggerated downtown
Heard as “pastel”
Running down an alley lit purple and green, in a pink tube top carrying a birdcage
FashionPink tube top
Heard as “birdcage / pink tube”
Madonna brought the demo she had just made with Stephen Bray to the Danceteria shoot as temp music; it stayed in the film and became the hit
Heard as “into the groove / new song”
The cable man in a silver Mylar singlet with his video camera
FashionSilver Mylar singlet
Heard as “mylar / singlet”
Waited on the next folding chair to follow Susan on a 2 a.m. Manhattan Cable show
Heard as “jay leno”
James clocked the Keith Haring heels at once
FashionKeith Haring heels
Heard as “key tearing heels / tearing shoes”
In the mid 80s its Art Deco hotels were still old-age homes; a host moved there in 1991, just as it changed
Heard as “south beach”
Chicago company whose Balm in Gilead Susan saw in New York
Heard as “steppenwolf”
In Balm in Gilead and cast by Susan in Making Mr. Right; Malkovich's wife at the time
Heard as “glenn headley”
She-Devil: Meryl Streep's ultra-feminine pink romance novelist in a pink mansion by the sea, against the frumpy housewife
FashionUltra-feminine pink
Heard as “pink mansion / ultra feminine”
Darren Star's earlier show, which Susan hadn't watched
Heard as “90210 / beverly hills”
Chris Noth as one of the drag queen prostitutes in the last scene of Smithereens
FashionDrag in a dress
Heard as “big in a dress / drag queen prostitute”
Played one of the drag queen prostitutes in the last scene of Smithereens; Susan put in a word for him as Mr. Big in the Sex and the City pilot
Heard as “chris noth / kristoff”
At NYU in the undergraduate school, a year or two younger than Susan
Heard as “spike lee”
A wall between Second and Third Avenue fly-posted with band posters and Xeroxes half an inch thick
Heard as “st. mark”
Its posters were on the fly-posted wall on St. Marks Place
Heard as “pyramid”
Fenton remembers an early-80s graffiti artist who painted shadow figures; Susan wonders if it was early Banksy, then doubts it
Heard as “banksy”
Hollywood's pioneer woman director, whom Susan didn't know about growing up
Heard as “arzner”
Susan always loved them because the women were fun
Heard as “women in prison”
His early films had the kind of flawed male leads Susan wanted for a woman
Heard as “nicholson”
The best film bookstore in New York, on 13th Street; Richard Hell worked there
Heard as “cinemabilia”
Head of the Cannes Film Festival, who moved Smithereens from the Directors' Fortnight into the official competition
Heard as “jules jacob”
Alan Parker's film with Diane Keaton, in competition at Cannes with Smithereens
Heard as “shoot the moon”
Star of Shoot the Moon, one of the two other American films in competition at Cannes with Smithereens
Heard as “diane keaton”
The one big club that wasn't downtown
Heard as “studio 54”
Susan's first New York experience in 1973: models in towels on a runway in the afternoon, Bette Midler and Barry Manilow playing
FashionTowels pinned on the runway
Heard as “fashion show”
Susan phoned its screenwriting department and found Ron Nyswaner
Heard as “columbia”
Susan Berman taking a Polaroid of herself in Smithereens - the beginning of selfies
FashionPolaroid selfie
Heard as “polaroid”
Co-producer of Desperately Seeking Susan, a first-time producer
Heard as “pillsbury”
Co-producer of Desperately Seeking Susan, a first-time producer
Heard as “midge sanford”
Ed Lachman's coloured lighting later turned up in every MTV video
Heard as “mtv”
Short-lived band a host was in with Danny Dildo and Ben Gay; he played the tambourine
Heard as “the fags”
A host was briefly in a band called the Fags with him; he is one of the two goth boys dancing behind Madonna in the Into the Groove video
Heard as “danny dildo”
The other goth boy dancing behind Madonna in Into the Groove, also in the Fags
Heard as “ben gay”
Danny Dildo and Ben Gay as the two goth boys dancing behind Madonna in Into the Groove
FashionGoth black
Heard as “goth boys”
The night before, the crew rehearsed at Danceteria and needed a dance song for the extras
Heard as “block out the camera”
By the time of the edit Madonna's lucky star had risen
Heard as “lucky star”
Head of production at Orion, who said yes to keeping Into the Groove in the film
Heard as “metavoy”
One of the Manhattan theatres that screen Desperately Seeking Susan with a Q&A
Heard as “metro no art”
At Lincoln Center twenty years on Susan saw it again in a beautiful print and told Rosanna Arquette how brilliant she was
Heard as “20th anniversary”
Where Susan saw Desperately Seeking Susan again at its 20th anniversary
Heard as “lincoln center”
Heard as “andy warhol”
At Madonna's wedding; Susan says her date spent the day flirting with Princess Leia
Heard as “princess leia”
Manhattan Cable's late-night leased-access channel, with its naked talk show
Heard as “daniel j”
The pianist on that late-night cable show had a Liberace candelabra
Heard as “liberace”
Ann Magnuson's goofy career-woman power suits, except for the Keith Haring heels
FashionGoofy power suits
Heard as “power suits”
Making Mr. Right's pastel world of old Jewish retirees and Cuban influence
Heard as “miami”
Malkovich's Oscar-nominated supporting role, which made Susan think of him as a dramatic actor
Heard as “places in the heart”
Steppenwolf's play directed by John Malkovich, where Susan first saw Laurie Metcalf and Glenne Headly
Heard as “bomb and gilead”
Susan wasn't sure whether he was in the Balm in Gilead she saw
Heard as “esposito”
Roseanne was one or two seasons into her sitcom when she made She-Devil
Heard as “seasons in”
Had already bought its She-Devil copies before the bad publicity
Heard as “blockbuster”
Costume designer of Sex and the City; the hosts ask about creating the look
Heard as “pat field”
Wrote the New York Observer columns Sex and the City grew out of
Heard as “candace bushnell”
The characters were very privileged by the end of the series and the two films that followed
Heard as “two movies”
Carrie's apartment moved there once the show went to series
Heard as “west village”
Susan's partner, with her in the country during the pandemic when she started her notes for the memoir
Heard as “jonathan”
Susan never read it as a film student; today's students know the industry
Heard as “variety”
The only other person from Susan's NYU grad film school year who became a film director in the 80s
Heard as “jarmusch”
Smithereens may be on Max too
Heard as “on max”
The naked late-night talk show Susan remembers on Channel J (Dan Landers' show; not named on air)
Heard as “(implied)”
Long golden-blonde hair, round dark tortoiseshell glasses, gold hoop earrings and a black V-neck top, in front of white built-in bookshelves in her New Jersey country house
FashionTortoiseshell glasses, gold hoops, black top
Heard as “On camera”
Oversized dark red-brown glasses, a dangling black earring and a black knit with a shaggy silver-grey fur collar, in front of his bookcase and the Buster Crabbe poster
FashionOversized glasses, silver fur collar
Heard as “On camera”
Blue-grey hoodie with a multicoloured striped placket and thin rimless glasses, in front of sunflower wallpaper, caps and a Brillo box
FashionBlue-grey hoodie, rimless glasses
Heard as “On camera”
Navy patterned button-down shirt and black-rimmed glasses, in a bright office
FashionNavy patterned shirt, black glasses
Heard as “On camera”
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